For years I’ve had a dream of building a rack mounted PC capable of splitting its resources to host multiple GPU intensive VMs:
a few gaming VMs
a VM for work that can run Davinci Resolve and Blender renders
an LLM server
a Stable Diffusion server
media server
Just to name a few possibilities…
Everytime I’ve looked into it, it seemed like the technology just wasn’t there yet. I remember a few years ago Linus TT took a shot at it, but in the end suggested the technology (for non-commercial entities) just wasn’t in a comfortable spot yet.
So how far off are we? Obviously AI focused companies seem to make it work, but what possibilities exist for us self-hosters who might also want to run multiple displays in addition to the web gui LLM servers? And without forking out crazy money for GPU virtualization software licenses?
The technology has “been there” for a while, it’s trivial do setup what you’re asking for, the issue is that games have anti cheat engines that will get triggered by the virtualization and ban you.
GPU passthrough has been pretty good for a while. The reason why Linus couldn’t get it working reliably was because iirc, he tried to do it on windows… I’ve done it before with a single gpu and have very recently set it up again, now that I have a 2nd one and gotta say, it’s pretty damn good…
As others have expressed- were already there. Understand though that the reason this hasn’t caught on mainstream is the entire purpose of what you are asking is simple: it runs counter to the standards of commercial capitalism. We are talking about efficiency, self hosting, doing more with less, and cutting strings.
That said- understand that what you are undertaking is not dissimilar from building infrastructure in a company. You are building and expanding to meet your needs. Your needs are unique so there isn’t a ‘turn key’ solution that will fit perfectly… so you need to try things and see what works.
As far as things you are talking about specifically: you are going to ultimately be dipping your toes into the virtualization world… so xcp-ng and proxmox are good choices. If you can get your hands on older copies and uh… source a key or two: esxi is also very beginner friendly but won’t be able to upgrade thanks to their new pricing model. You seem like you are aware of the YouTube sphere so let me recommend 2GuysTech and the series on different hypervisors.
Once you decide on a hypervisor it’s as ‘simple’ as building a PC to meet your needs. If you have one already I’d start there to get a feel for how much you can pull out of it to determine how much you may need. You can probably split up a single GPU or just pass it through (cost vs performance.). LLMs are power / resource hungry so that may require it’s own GPU.
If power is cheap by you you can look into older server hardware but honestly this can be a messy space to dabble in (noise, heat, power costs.)
From there play with services that fit your needs.
It’s very doable and there are some easier paths to take… certainly- but again the thing about homelabs is it’s very custom. This is why the community (in general) is willing to help. We all have had to forge the same path.
None of the presented solutions cover the aspect of being in a different place than the rack, the same network is fine, but at a minimum a different room.
How do you deliver high resolution (e.g. 1440p, 144 fps) to multiple monitors with low latency over a network? I haven’t seen anything like that accomplished without running fiber from the host.
Eventually, your thin client will need too much power anyway, making the costs rise a lot. It makes sense in an office where you have 500 seats and you can load balance resources.
If someone can show me a multi seat gaming server that has native remote performance (as in you drag windows around in 144 fps, not the standard artifacty high latency behavior of vnc) I’ll eat a shoe.
None of the presented solutions cover the aspect of being in a different place than the rack, the same network is fine, but at a minimum a different room.
If someone can show me a multi seat gaming server that has native remote performance (as in you drag windows around in 144 fps, not the standard artifacty high latency behavior of vnc) I’ll eat a shoe.
Thin clients absolutely can do this already. There are a variety of ways to transmit low latency video around a home from HDBaseT solutions to multicast / network driven ones. Nevermind basic solutions like sunshine /moonlight… Nvidia variants etc.
I have a single racked PC for feeding my home which has 3 ‘desk’ endpoints and two tvs… all of which are fed from the same location and can be dynamically matrixed (albeit the choke point is usb2 to each location because I’m cheap.). Latency is maybe 1.5-3 frames from live. Other solutions are normally around 5-8 which while higher are sufficiently snappy and won’t effect competitive play (professional level notwithstanding.)
A lot of latency comes down to tuning your solution and research. The vnc method you refer to is the lowest common denominator running on ancient technology and codecs simply because it is a widely supported standard.
Edit: As far as 144 goes- I don’t have any displays that run that but I have two running at 120 with no issue.
What is the cost of the thin clients and are you doing this over copper?
Are your desks multi monitor? To get the bare minimum in my households scenario I would need at least 12 streams at greater than 1080p
For 5 seats how much did it cost versus just having a computer in each location? For example looking at hdbaset to replace just my desk setup, I would need 4 ~$350 devices, just looking at monoprice for an idea (https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=21669) which doesn’t even cover all of the screens in my office.
The two workstation nooks (spaces) have the capability to have a second monitor but I’ve since retired them in favor of ultrawide monitors which I find are a better experience in general. My current working solution is a split between two technologies: one thin client (second monitors) and one network distribution solution using multicast (primary displays and USB). Both run on copper 1 gig but the multicast traffic requires a switch that doesn’t suck and vlan usage. On average a single port can reach 70-85% usage sustained. I believe my longest run is 150’ ish.
Cost per node is roughly 300- so comparable to what you are experiencing. If I went stupid cheap I could probably cut that to maybe 150-250 depending on my luck with eBay and patience.
In terms of capabilities you could argue that this could be done without distribution using a nuc solution… but you’d have to split resources to reach node you’d need a full feature set at.
My central server is a threadripper build with 2 gpus for direct passthrough to ‘gaming’ vms and a split gpu handling the rest of the needs of the other systems. Thanks to the matrix capabilities any given seat can be any system… or in some cases 2 seats can be a single rig (2 room gaming off the same display). There is a cost savings to be found in splitting resources from a more expensive build out to cheaper nodes… but ymmv depending on active seats and specific needs. I believe as a general rule it should be less costly and more efficient (power/heat) than individual solutions.
Absolutely 👍. I’ll just add that there are a lot of alternate routes to get the result you want so research and experiment but ideally set a deadline which can help with decision paralysis. Later changes are a problem for future you 😁.
You can use proxmox to do most of this. Currently my set will only pass-through the gpu to one VM. I have heard of splitting the power among VMs but I have not gone down that rabbit hole. If I want to play with llms I fire up that server, if I want to game, I shut that down and fire up my windows 10 vm.
Do you really need multiple VMs, can’t you run all at one? The easiest would be to install some windows/Linux on a single machine. Then stream your games with Sunshine/Moonshine and connect over RDP/VPN?
I bought a cheap used Dell R710 on Facebook marketplace for like $100 or so, as well as an ups, rack, 10g switch, etc, from various other sellers. All told, I’ve got about $500 in my server setup.
Installed proxmox on it. It’s “free” if you don’t buy a license. You just have to put up with a little nag screen when you open the control panel but it still works 100%, much like winrar.
Works great.
Edit: just realized this is in c/selfhosted AND I misunderstood the post. I’m gonna leave it here just on the off chance it’s useful to somebody, but I acknowledge it’s not what you’re looking for.
I run a few servers myself with proxmox. FYI there is a script that removes that nag screen as well as configures some other useful things for proxmox self-hosters.
Everytime I’ve looked into it, it seemed like the technology just wasn’t there yet. I remember a few years ago Linus TT took a shot at it, but in the end suggested the technology (for non-commercial entities) just wasn’t in a comfortable spot yet.
I had a sever in my basement running proxmox ( actually ended up doing it all manually eventually ), with a windows gaming VM and handful of utility Linux servers in 2015? The only problem being Windows games using kernel level anti cheat.
I get it really comes down to GPU sharing and I think it’s doable on consumer GPUs now but I’m not sure about gaming. Honestly the tech has been here for a long time. But companies like NVIDIA held on forever to the GPU resource sharing features and kept it away from consumer cards.
I’m a bit older these days and have gone through many generations of hardware with a different setup. I keep two or more GFX cards on hand. Latest always goes to my workstation while last gen is thrown in my sever and used by all my docker containers. Then have an older Xeon with 24 bays that I use for storage.
You’re not really describing your use-case here. Are you just trying to run a server that does all your rendering for you so you can play games elsewhere? Yes, that’s totally possible.
If you’re trying to describe a business…no, it’s not possible, scalable, or profitable.
I’m curious as to what your intentions are here though.
I have a workstation I use for video editing/vfx as well as gaming. Because of my work, I’m fortunate to have the latest high end GPUs and a 160" projector screen. I also have a few TVs in various rooms around the house.
Traditionally, if I want to watch something or play a video game, I have to go to the room with the jellyfin/plex/roku box to watch something and am limited to the work/gaming rig to play games. I can’t run renders and game at the same time. Buying an entire new pc so I can do both is a massive waste of money. If I want to do a test screening of a video I’m working on to see how it displays on various devices, I have to transfer the file around to these devices. This is limiting and inefficient to me.
I want to be able to go to any screen in my house: my living room TV, my large projector in my studio room, my tablet, or even my phone and switch between:
my workstation display running on a Window 10 VM
my linux VM with youtube or jellyfin player I use as a daily driver
a fedora or Windows VM dedicated to gaming, maybe SteamOS
maybe a friend comes over for a LAN party and we both can game without having to set up a 2nd rig
I want to host an LLM or stablediffusion server without having to buy a new GPU with enough VRAM to run SDXL
What you’re describing is mostly a networking issue. I’m also pretty suspect about your setup and wishes. You definitely don’t work for a large VFX studio, and you’re not using this as described for CAD work. I’m going to guess this entire setup is for your anime and incest rendering farm.
This is a ridiculous question for anyone with this amount of hardware in their home already that’s using it on a daily basis to actually work. You would also not be “running renders” if this was hardware provided by a company you work for.
Whatever is being asked here is for a shady ass person. Don’t help them.
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The technology has “been there” for a while, it’s trivial do setup what you’re asking for, the issue is that games have anti cheat engines that will get triggered by the virtualization and ban you.
GPU passthrough has been pretty good for a while. The reason why Linus couldn’t get it working reliably was because iirc, he tried to do it on windows… I’ve done it before with a single gpu and have very recently set it up again, now that I have a 2nd one and gotta say, it’s pretty damn good…
How are you handling displays and keyboard/mouse? Also what VM software?
Check out this video
It goes over all of the steps of setting it up.
As others have expressed- were already there. Understand though that the reason this hasn’t caught on mainstream is the entire purpose of what you are asking is simple: it runs counter to the standards of commercial capitalism. We are talking about efficiency, self hosting, doing more with less, and cutting strings.
That said- understand that what you are undertaking is not dissimilar from building infrastructure in a company. You are building and expanding to meet your needs. Your needs are unique so there isn’t a ‘turn key’ solution that will fit perfectly… so you need to try things and see what works.
As far as things you are talking about specifically: you are going to ultimately be dipping your toes into the virtualization world… so xcp-ng and proxmox are good choices. If you can get your hands on older copies and uh… source a key or two: esxi is also very beginner friendly but won’t be able to upgrade thanks to their new pricing model. You seem like you are aware of the YouTube sphere so let me recommend 2GuysTech and the series on different hypervisors.
Once you decide on a hypervisor it’s as ‘simple’ as building a PC to meet your needs. If you have one already I’d start there to get a feel for how much you can pull out of it to determine how much you may need. You can probably split up a single GPU or just pass it through (cost vs performance.). LLMs are power / resource hungry so that may require it’s own GPU.
If power is cheap by you you can look into older server hardware but honestly this can be a messy space to dabble in (noise, heat, power costs.)
From there play with services that fit your needs.
It’s very doable and there are some easier paths to take… certainly- but again the thing about homelabs is it’s very custom. This is why the community (in general) is willing to help. We all have had to forge the same path.
None of the presented solutions cover the aspect of being in a different place than the rack, the same network is fine, but at a minimum a different room.
How do you deliver high resolution (e.g. 1440p, 144 fps) to multiple monitors with low latency over a network? I haven’t seen anything like that accomplished without running fiber from the host.
Eventually, your thin client will need too much power anyway, making the costs rise a lot. It makes sense in an office where you have 500 seats and you can load balance resources.
If someone can show me a multi seat gaming server that has native remote performance (as in you drag windows around in 144 fps, not the standard artifacty high latency behavior of vnc) I’ll eat a shoe.
Thin clients absolutely can do this already. There are a variety of ways to transmit low latency video around a home from HDBaseT solutions to multicast / network driven ones. Nevermind basic solutions like sunshine /moonlight… Nvidia variants etc.
I have a single racked PC for feeding my home which has 3 ‘desk’ endpoints and two tvs… all of which are fed from the same location and can be dynamically matrixed (albeit the choke point is usb2 to each location because I’m cheap.). Latency is maybe 1.5-3 frames from live. Other solutions are normally around 5-8 which while higher are sufficiently snappy and won’t effect competitive play (professional level notwithstanding.)
A lot of latency comes down to tuning your solution and research. The vnc method you refer to is the lowest common denominator running on ancient technology and codecs simply because it is a widely supported standard.
Edit: As far as 144 goes- I don’t have any displays that run that but I have two running at 120 with no issue.
What is the cost of the thin clients and are you doing this over copper?
Are your desks multi monitor? To get the bare minimum in my households scenario I would need at least 12 streams at greater than 1080p
For 5 seats how much did it cost versus just having a computer in each location? For example looking at hdbaset to replace just my desk setup, I would need 4 ~$350 devices, just looking at monoprice for an idea (https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=21669) which doesn’t even cover all of the screens in my office.
The two workstation nooks (spaces) have the capability to have a second monitor but I’ve since retired them in favor of ultrawide monitors which I find are a better experience in general. My current working solution is a split between two technologies: one thin client (second monitors) and one network distribution solution using multicast (primary displays and USB). Both run on copper 1 gig but the multicast traffic requires a switch that doesn’t suck and vlan usage. On average a single port can reach 70-85% usage sustained. I believe my longest run is 150’ ish.
Cost per node is roughly 300- so comparable to what you are experiencing. If I went stupid cheap I could probably cut that to maybe 150-250 depending on my luck with eBay and patience.
In terms of capabilities you could argue that this could be done without distribution using a nuc solution… but you’d have to split resources to reach node you’d need a full feature set at.
My central server is a threadripper build with 2 gpus for direct passthrough to ‘gaming’ vms and a split gpu handling the rest of the needs of the other systems. Thanks to the matrix capabilities any given seat can be any system… or in some cases 2 seats can be a single rig (2 room gaming off the same display). There is a cost savings to be found in splitting resources from a more expensive build out to cheaper nodes… but ymmv depending on active seats and specific needs. I believe as a general rule it should be less costly and more efficient (power/heat) than individual solutions.
Thanks for the breakdown! This is probably the most helpful breakdown I’ve seen of a build like this.
Absolutely 👍. I’ll just add that there are a lot of alternate routes to get the result you want so research and experiment but ideally set a deadline which can help with decision paralysis. Later changes are a problem for future you 😁.
Yep just ping time and latency make this a no go for a vast majority of us.
You can use proxmox to do most of this. Currently my set will only pass-through the gpu to one VM. I have heard of splitting the power among VMs but I have not gone down that rabbit hole. If I want to play with llms I fire up that server, if I want to game, I shut that down and fire up my windows 10 vm.
Do you really need multiple VMs, can’t you run all at one? The easiest would be to install some windows/Linux on a single machine. Then stream your games with Sunshine/Moonshine and connect over RDP/VPN?
I bought a cheap used Dell R710 on Facebook marketplace for like $100 or so, as well as an ups, rack, 10g switch, etc, from various other sellers. All told, I’ve got about $500 in my server setup.
Installed proxmox on it. It’s “free” if you don’t buy a license. You just have to put up with a little nag screen when you open the control panel but it still works 100%, much like winrar.
Works great.
Edit: just realized this is in c/selfhosted AND I misunderstood the post. I’m gonna leave it here just on the off chance it’s useful to somebody, but I acknowledge it’s not what you’re looking for.
I run a few servers myself with proxmox. FYI there is a script that removes that nag screen as well as configures some other useful things for proxmox self-hosters.
https://tteck.github.io/Proxmox/
I had a sever in my basement running proxmox ( actually ended up doing it all manually eventually ), with a windows gaming VM and handful of utility Linux servers in 2015? The only problem being Windows games using kernel level anti cheat.
I get it really comes down to GPU sharing and I think it’s doable on consumer GPUs now but I’m not sure about gaming. Honestly the tech has been here for a long time. But companies like NVIDIA held on forever to the GPU resource sharing features and kept it away from consumer cards.
I’m a bit older these days and have gone through many generations of hardware with a different setup. I keep two or more GFX cards on hand. Latest always goes to my workstation while last gen is thrown in my sever and used by all my docker containers. Then have an older Xeon with 24 bays that I use for storage.
You’re not really describing your use-case here. Are you just trying to run a server that does all your rendering for you so you can play games elsewhere? Yes, that’s totally possible.
If you’re trying to describe a business…no, it’s not possible, scalable, or profitable.
I’m curious as to what your intentions are here though.
I have a workstation I use for video editing/vfx as well as gaming. Because of my work, I’m fortunate to have the latest high end GPUs and a 160" projector screen. I also have a few TVs in various rooms around the house.
Traditionally, if I want to watch something or play a video game, I have to go to the room with the jellyfin/plex/roku box to watch something and am limited to the work/gaming rig to play games. I can’t run renders and game at the same time. Buying an entire new pc so I can do both is a massive waste of money. If I want to do a test screening of a video I’m working on to see how it displays on various devices, I have to transfer the file around to these devices. This is limiting and inefficient to me.
I want to be able to go to any screen in my house: my living room TV, my large projector in my studio room, my tablet, or even my phone and switch between:
What you’re describing is mostly a networking issue. I’m also pretty suspect about your setup and wishes. You definitely don’t work for a large VFX studio, and you’re not using this as described for CAD work. I’m going to guess this entire setup is for your anime and incest rendering farm.
This is a ridiculous question for anyone with this amount of hardware in their home already that’s using it on a daily basis to actually work. You would also not be “running renders” if this was hardware provided by a company you work for.
Whatever is being asked here is for a shady ass person. Don’t help them.
That’s such a weird leap in logic to jump to. Are you okay?
deleted by creator
I’m not the one making wild accusations about somebody wanting to selfhost a gpu server to edit…incest porn or whatever it is you’re on about.
No idea what lie you think I’m telling. 🤷♂️