Banana Pi is working on the upcoming Banana Pi BPI-M7 SBC powered by Rockchip RK3588 SoC whose low profile design reminds me of boards from Khadas such as
The Banana Pi BPI-M7 single board computer is equipped with up to 32GB RAM and 128GB eMMC flash, and features an M.2 2280 socket for one NVMe SSD, three display interfaces (HDMI, USB-C, MIPI DSI), two camera connectors, dual 2.5GbE, WiFi 6 and Bluetooth 5.2, a few USB ports, and a 40-pin GPIO header for expansion.
Depends on your use-case. If you want to use GPIO and other low level features, yes the Pi is faster to get going, if you’re just using ir for a NAS/storage then a board like that will work out of the box.
If you’re mad at NVidia for their closed-source drivers, then remember that ARM seldom makes their Linux drivers available for free, so you have to either have to deal with absolutely no GPU driver while the CPU does the graphics rendering (might not be a big deal on a NAS though), or with open source drivers that are less capable than the Nouveau drivers and even fiddlier to install. The ARM Mali driver issue is so bad I was legit thinking on a solution to run the Android binary blobs (which at least are available by ripping them off from the Android kernel) on regular Linux, a lot of function call redirects would likely take care of that issue.
Is it $60 or less? Everytime one of these alternative boards with an assload of more features pops up, nobody bothers to mention the price. Obviously we could spend more money to get more features, that’s what spending more money does. You can’t replace something without actually offering an alternative. The pi’s biggest selling point was that it was cheaper than a steak dinner. If you dont match or beat that, you aren’t actually competing with the pi.
It looks like it’s ~$100. But when I’ve used similar SBCs in the past the issue ends up being drivers. Even if something is faster and better specced than a RasPi, you end up outside that ecosystem with very little in the way of support for whatever oddball hardware your board has.
Cool? I’m seeing $165, but my original comment was based on the article as it existed five months ago. I’m not sure the board was even shipping at that time
SBCs in the past the issue ends up being drivers. (…) outside that ecosystem with very little in the way of support for whatever oddball hardware your board has.
The RPi does have a nice ecosystem but the trick is to pick a board supported by Armbian - that will ensure future kernel updates and low level things working fine. For instance I’ve been using a NanoPi M4v2 since 2018 with a RK3399 CPU mind that at that time it already had a PCIe x2 interface, 4GB of RAM and was cheaper than the Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ from the same year that had Ethernet shared with the USB bus.
Thanks for saying this. It’s features at price point.
“It’s better than the Pi at only 3x the price.”
And what’s with the “Avoid the Raspberry PI” sentiment? They are hard to get (?). I’ve been using the Pi for forever, and have zero ‘product’ complaints that would make me want to "Avoid the Pi’. If anything, I have plans for more. Again, the price - A Zero2W is $15 MSRP. For $15, You can put that in everything. A Pi4 is $35. Its just a great deal.
Is it $60 or less? Everytime one of these alternative boards with an assload of more features pops up, nobody bothers to mention the price
Have you considered that if you buy a RPi5 today it wont be 60$? Either if that’s your price point, depending in your use case, there might be better options. For a NAS for 100€ you can find an HP Mini with an i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME. For electronics Radxa Zero 3W / Zero 3E.
If you’re looking for cheap… what would recommend is instead a Mini-PC like the HP EliteDesk 800 G2 DM or the Dell OptiPlex 3050 Micro.
For a small NAS and self-host a few services even an old laptop will do it, however there are advantages to picking a mini PC. Those machines are quiet, don’t require much power and some can even fit a 2.5" hard drive so you won’t need external hard drive enclosures. More on that later.
For eg. for 100€ you can find an HP Mini with an i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME that obviously has a case, a LOT of I/O, PCIe (m2) comes with a power adapter and outperforms a RPi5 in all possible ways. Note that the RPi5 8GB of ram will cost you 80€ + case + power adapter + cable + bullshit adapter + SD card + whatever else money grab - the Pi isn’t just a good option.
Aside from the big brands like HP and Dell there are other alternatives such as the trendy MINISFORUM however their BIOS comes out of the factory with weird bugs and the hardware isn’t as reliable - missing ESD protection on USB in some models and whatnot.
With patience and from eBay and local second hand websites. If you’re in Europe you’ll usually see sellers from Germany selling them for cheap, in the US there are a LOT more offers.
Regardless, like used cars, sometimes a specific generation that is cheap today can be more expensive tomorrow , it all depends on the amount of machines someone or some big company is dumping at the time you’re searching for. In my case I can usually get things locally cheaper than eBay, for eg. recently I saw a very good deal on a HP Elite Mini 600 G9 i3-12100T 16GB of RAM, NMVe 256GB for 300€.
You’re ignoring the fact that you need accessories that will up your cost to the 100$ range. Either way, fine, there are now 4 and 5th gen HP Mini PCs selling for 50-70$. Want even cheaper then look for i3 CPU + 4 GB of RAM, you’ll find 40$ complete machines that run faster and are way better than a Pi. All of those options come with power adapters and all the things required to get it going.
Do you really think that will make a difference. For what’s worth how much do you pay to have a 35W device running all year? In my case I’m paying a crazy 0,157€/kW… Amounts to 35/1000*24*365*0.157 = 48.14€/year considering a full load that the machine never has.
TDP 35 W
Thermal Design Power (TDP) represents the average power, in watts, the processor dissipates when operating at Base Frequency with all cores active under an Intel-defined, high-complexity workload. Refer to Datasheet for thermal solution requirements.
Here’s how things look on the HP model above:
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-8500T CPU @ 2.10GHz
BIOS Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-8500T CPU @ 2.10GHz To Be Filled By O.E.M. CPU @ 2.0GHz
BIOS CPU family: 205
CPU family: 6
Model: 158
Thread(s) per core: 1
Core(s) per socket: 6
Socket(s): 1
Stepping: 10
CPU(s) scaling MHz: 23%
CPU max MHz: 3500.0000
CPU min MHz: 800.0000
Obviously that thing wont be running at base frequency while idling. Here is one if units right now:
analyzing CPU 0:
driver: intel_pstate
CPUs which run at the same hardware frequency: 0
CPUs which need to have their frequency coordinated by software: 0
maximum transition latency: 4294.55 ms.
hardware limits: 800 MHz - 3.50 GHz
available cpufreq governors: performance, powersave
current policy: frequency should be within 800 MHz and 3.50 GHz.
The governor "powersave" may decide which speed to use
within this range.
current CPU frequency is 800 MHz.
See, it scales down to 800Mhz with a watt meter I remember it translated to idling at around 10-11W.
I never said it was better than a Pi, I just said the difference is not worth it and you’re still ignoring the fact that i5-8500T will be able to do a LOT more work than the RPi5 could do while keeping the CPU bellow or at 2.1 GHz - not surpassing the 35 W TDP.
Okay got it, so you compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with the average/idle TDP on a desktop, and you’re acting like that’s a fair comparison. Thanks for clearing that up!
No… I compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with with the average TDP of a “T-CPU” (power-optimized) running at full load and I concluded by saying a realistic idle consumption is 11W.
Look I’m sure the Pi does a lot better than 11W idle, but at those such low consumptions is is mostly irrelevant. I also added that given load X (equivalent to the Pi CPU at max load) the Intel CPU will make make it without reaching even the 35W while the Pi is going to be running at a full 27W.
The max Power consumption often does not matter on devices that run 24/7 more important is the idle powet consumption. Here are SBCs and ARM Chips in generell way better.
I had my Pi 3B+ down to under 5W on idle having various services running. I can not speek for newer Pi versions but i would estimate them still lower then 8W on idle.
That is really hard to beat with an normal PC. Maybe the Mini PC with newer Mobile or integrated CPUs are getting in this region.
Not quite sure where you got the 37W for the HP Mini.
I’ve got HP ProDesk 600 G5 Mini i5-9500T off ebay for $190. Best damn purchase ever. Running 21 docker containers and transcode 4k with ease while consuming only 35w.
However, sometimes you need GPIOs especially for school projects.
However, sometimes you need GPIOs especially for school projects.
Yes but think about this, for a simple school/electronics project you can get even an old RPi 2B+ for around 10$ nowadays that will get the job done. For a NAS / media center / selfhosting any second hand machine will be a better choice. I wouln’t even mix the two into a single board.
There are also other brand new cheap SBCs that might work for your electronics such as the Radxa Zero 3W or the Zero 3E or even the Raspberry Pi Zero W. The point is that it doesn’t make sense to buy a standard and expensive RPi for things that don’t require much CPU. If you don’t really need an OS and you code C or MicroPython a 3.5$ ESP32 board as well.
What if you really hate the fact that The RPi foundation is being hostile against people nowadays with proprietary PCIe connectors, telemetry, requiring a custom flash tool to get SSH and whatnot?
You may want to have a read at this: https://lemmy.world/comment/5357961. The Pi is becoming the least consumer friendly SBC and a money grab like no other.
There aren’t really any reasons to avoid it. There are certainly reasons to choose an alternative product, namely the complete unavailability of 4B and 5 boards. My biggest issue so far is that the alternatives offer features that I don’t want, or have a price that’s way too high for a SBC
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What an unpleasant and unnecessary turn of phrase .
Good specs, but the rpi still has the absolute big advantage of it’s vast field of available turnkey software.
There is a big difference between “it works out of the box” and “it works so-so after a lot of fiddling, and I still don’t know why”.
Depends on your use-case. If you want to use GPIO and other low level features, yes the Pi is faster to get going, if you’re just using ir for a NAS/storage then a board like that will work out of the box.
Well, it always depends on the use case. And if you think over the use case, maybe other solutions might even be better.
Also GPU drivers.
If you’re mad at NVidia for their closed-source drivers, then remember that ARM seldom makes their Linux drivers available for free, so you have to either have to deal with absolutely no GPU driver while the CPU does the graphics rendering (might not be a big deal on a NAS though), or with open source drivers that are less capable than the Nouveau drivers and even fiddlier to install. The ARM Mali driver issue is so bad I was legit thinking on a solution to run the Android binary blobs (which at least are available by ripping them off from the Android kernel) on regular Linux, a lot of function call redirects would likely take care of that issue.
Is it $60 or less? Everytime one of these alternative boards with an assload of more features pops up, nobody bothers to mention the price. Obviously we could spend more money to get more features, that’s what spending more money does. You can’t replace something without actually offering an alternative. The pi’s biggest selling point was that it was cheaper than a steak dinner. If you dont match or beat that, you aren’t actually competing with the pi.
It looks like it’s ~$100. But when I’ve used similar SBCs in the past the issue ends up being drivers. Even if something is faster and better specced than a RasPi, you end up outside that ecosystem with very little in the way of support for whatever oddball hardware your board has.
There’s an AliExpress link in the article that clearly prices it at $260…
Cool? I’m seeing $165, but my original comment was based on the article as it existed five months ago. I’m not sure the board was even shipping at that time
The RPi does have a nice ecosystem but the trick is to pick a board supported by Armbian - that will ensure future kernel updates and low level things working fine. For instance I’ve been using a NanoPi M4v2 since 2018 with a RK3399 CPU mind that at that time it already had a PCIe x2 interface, 4GB of RAM and was cheaper than the Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ from the same year that had Ethernet shared with the USB bus.
I have a BananaPi M3 and the software support was horrific. Getting a kernel to compile with the hacked drivers and firmware was like black magic.
Thanks for saying this. It’s features at price point.
“It’s better than the Pi at only 3x the price.”
And what’s with the “Avoid the Raspberry PI” sentiment? They are hard to get (?). I’ve been using the Pi for forever, and have zero ‘product’ complaints that would make me want to "Avoid the Pi’. If anything, I have plans for more. Again, the price - A Zero2W is $15 MSRP. For $15, You can put that in everything. A Pi4 is $35. Its just a great deal.
Have you considered that if you buy a RPi5 today it wont be 60$? Either if that’s your price point, depending in your use case, there might be better options. For a NAS for 100€ you can find an HP Mini with an i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME. For electronics Radxa Zero 3W / Zero 3E.
Those zero 3W sticks have been unavailable ever since I saw it here.
Looks like they are available now. I have never used a Zero 3W, but that price is real nice.NM, I misread the site. They are not in stock.
AliExpress? I swear I saw em there the other day
Hopefully it’ll beat pi4 prices as well
If you’re looking for cheap… what would recommend is instead a Mini-PC like the HP EliteDesk 800 G2 DM or the Dell OptiPlex 3050 Micro.
For a small NAS and self-host a few services even an old laptop will do it, however there are advantages to picking a mini PC. Those machines are quiet, don’t require much power and some can even fit a 2.5" hard drive so you won’t need external hard drive enclosures. More on that later.
For eg. for 100€ you can find an HP Mini with an i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME that obviously has a case, a LOT of I/O, PCIe (m2) comes with a power adapter and outperforms a RPi5 in all possible ways. Note that the RPi5 8GB of ram will cost you 80€ + case + power adapter + cable + bullshit adapter + SD card + whatever else money grab - the Pi isn’t just a good option.
Aside from the big brands like HP and Dell there are other alternatives such as the trendy MINISFORUM however their BIOS comes out of the factory with weird bugs and the hardware isn’t as reliable - missing ESD protection on USB in some models and whatnot.
Where on earth are you buying HP Mini machines for so cheap? Even the older gen seem to be 5 times as expensive as your estimate.
With patience and from eBay and local second hand websites. If you’re in Europe you’ll usually see sellers from Germany selling them for cheap, in the US there are a LOT more offers.
Regardless, like used cars, sometimes a specific generation that is cheap today can be more expensive tomorrow , it all depends on the amount of machines someone or some big company is dumping at the time you’re searching for. In my case I can usually get things locally cheaper than eBay, for eg. recently I saw a very good deal on a HP Elite Mini 600 G9 i3-12100T 16GB of RAM, NMVe 256GB for 300€.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I appreciate the info, but I am not a patient man. :)
Fair enough 😂
100$ isn’t cheaper than 55$. That’s 200% more than the pi. If someone is looking for a pi because of the price, a 100$ computer isn’t an option.
You’re ignoring the fact that you need accessories that will up your cost to the 100$ range. Either way, fine, there are now 4 and 5th gen HP Mini PCs selling for 50-70$. Want even cheaper then look for i3 CPU + 4 GB of RAM, you’ll find 40$ complete machines that run faster and are way better than a Pi. All of those options come with power adapters and all the things required to get it going.
So it costs more up front, and it uses more electricity which costs more in the long term.
I don’t need all the extra Pi accessories, I already have cables and chargers and SD cards. So for me, the price of a Pi is just the price of a Pi.
Do you really think that will make a difference. For what’s worth how much do you pay to have a 35W device running all year? In my case I’m paying a crazy 0,157€/kW… Amounts to 35/1000*24*365*0.157 = 48.14€/year considering a full load that the machine never has.
Lmao did you just compare the highest possible power consumption on a Pi with the lowest possible consumption on a desktop PC?
Lmao, do your research before commenting stuff like that.
Here’s how things look on the HP model above:
Obviously that thing wont be running at base frequency while idling. Here is one if units right now:
See, it scales down to 800Mhz with a watt meter I remember it translated to idling at around 10-11W.
I never said it was better than a Pi, I just said the difference is not worth it and you’re still ignoring the fact that i5-8500T will be able to do a LOT more work than the RPi5 could do while keeping the CPU bellow or at 2.1 GHz - not surpassing the 35 W TDP.
Okay got it, so you compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with the average/idle TDP on a desktop, and you’re acting like that’s a fair comparison. Thanks for clearing that up!
No… I compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with with the average TDP of a “T-CPU” (power-optimized) running at full load and I concluded by saying a realistic idle consumption is 11W.
Look I’m sure the Pi does a lot better than 11W idle, but at those such low consumptions is is mostly irrelevant. I also added that given load X (equivalent to the Pi CPU at max load) the Intel CPU will make make it without reaching even the 35W while the Pi is going to be running at a full 27W.
The max Power consumption often does not matter on devices that run 24/7 more important is the idle powet consumption. Here are SBCs and ARM Chips in generell way better.
I had my Pi 3B+ down to under 5W on idle having various services running. I can not speek for newer Pi versions but i would estimate them still lower then 8W on idle. That is really hard to beat with an normal PC. Maybe the Mini PC with newer Mobile or integrated CPUs are getting in this region.
Not quite sure where you got the 37W for the HP Mini.
Check this out: https://lemmy.world/comment/5503906
Thank you for your detailed suggestion.
I’ve got HP ProDesk 600 G5 Mini i5-9500T off ebay for $190. Best damn purchase ever. Running 21 docker containers and transcode 4k with ease while consuming only 35w.
However, sometimes you need GPIOs especially for school projects.
Yes but think about this, for a simple school/electronics project you can get even an old RPi 2B+ for around 10$ nowadays that will get the job done. For a NAS / media center / selfhosting any second hand machine will be a better choice. I wouln’t even mix the two into a single board.
There are also other brand new cheap SBCs that might work for your electronics such as the Radxa Zero 3W or the Zero 3E or even the Raspberry Pi Zero W. The point is that it doesn’t make sense to buy a standard and expensive RPi for things that don’t require much CPU. If you don’t really need an OS and you code C or MicroPython a 3.5$ ESP32 board as well.
Damn, I got a Pi 4 8GB ram. Still planning on putting recalbox on it though.
Do you research very well before buying other boards than a Pi. It may be for you or now, depends a lot on your use-case.
“More reasons to Avoid the Raspberry Pi”
I didn’t know we even had reasons to avoid it
What if you really hate support and ease of finding images online?
What if you really hate the fact that The RPi foundation is being hostile against people nowadays with proprietary PCIe connectors, telemetry, requiring a custom flash tool to get SSH and whatnot?
You may want to have a read at this: https://lemmy.world/comment/5357961. The Pi is becoming the least consumer friendly SBC and a money grab like no other.
[Citations Needed]
No need, RaspberryPi has been avoiding us. Finding to purchase one has become a tiresome errand.
There aren’t really any reasons to avoid it. There are certainly reasons to choose an alternative product, namely the complete unavailability of 4B and 5 boards. My biggest issue so far is that the alternatives offer features that I don’t want, or have a price that’s way too high for a SBC